He is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. (James 1:8)
Why Are Evangelical Leaders Silent About Warren’s Sin?
Unfortunately Dr. John Piper made an ill-advised decision to bring in Purpose Driven Pope Rick Warren for the Desiring God Conference 2010 as the keynote speaker. The online apologetics and discernment work Apprising Ministries has been among those who’ve been reporting on Piper Warrengate, which is making some otherwise fragile associations a bit more fragile; especially when one sees who, and what, he’s promoting in Dr. LaVerne Adams And Rick Warren Driven By Destiny?
As another telling example, I have previously showed you Warren’s sinful double mindedness concerning apostate Roman Catholicism in Rick Warren And Purpose Driven Roman Catholics. As one who is myself a former Roman Catholic, whom the Lord graciously delivered from the religious bondage of the Roman Catholic Church into the glorious liberty of the sons of God, I’m going to continue taking issue with Dr. Piper telling us that Rick Warren is “doctrinal and sound.” [1]
Just the other day in Rick Warren Teaching The Law Of Attraction we see, not only has he done the foreward to a book by a positive confession Word Faith flake Dr. LaVerne Adams, who has direct ties to the New Apostolic Reformation, but his own teachings are starting to sound more and more like those of the New Spirituality. That said, in the case of Rick Warren and Roman Catholicism, we begin with an interview for Modern Reformation in 2004 where Warren states, “Theologically, I am a monergist and firmly hold to the five solas of the Reformation.” [2]
With this in mind then I bring to your attention again that Rick Warren has said: “I see absolutely zero reason in separating my fellowship from anybody.” [3] Now consider the following from a USA Today piece from July of 2003:
Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and all his senior staff sign on to the SBC’s doctrines, such as the literal and infallible Bible and exclusion of women as senior pastors. Yet Warren’s pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women. (Online source, emphasis mine)
There have been those who’ve attempted to refute the above statement saying the reporter erred; but Christian apologist Chris Rosebrough has documented that, the very week this USA article in question was released, it was even advertised on Warren’s Pastors.com website. [4] For the sake of argument though, let’s leave out “Warren’s pastor-training programs” with “Methodists, Mormons, Jews”; the problem doesn’t go away. For you see, we’re still told that he is/was training Roman Catholic churches, which according to Reformation theology—which Warren says he believes—are preaching another gospel. [5]
Here’s what Rick Warren believes about the Roman Catholic Church, which long ago placed its anathema upon the very Gospel of Jesus Christ:
“I am talking about the fact that about a hundred years ago, Christianity split into two wings… The small group structure is the structure of renewal in every facet of Christianity — including Catholicism.” (Online source, emphasis mine)
“Now I don’t agree with everything in everybody’s denomination, including my own. I don’t agree with everything that Catholics do or Pentecostals do, but what binds us together is so much stronger than what divides us,” he said. “I really do feel that these people are brothers and sisters in God’s family. I am looking to build bridges with the Orthodox Church, looking to build bridges with the Catholic Church,….” (Online source, emphasis mine)
“Most readers will be surprised to learn that the largest international network is…the Christian Church. The Church, in all its expressions—Catholic, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Protestant and many others—has 2.3 billion followers.” (Online source, emphasis mine)
How could an organization that doesn’t preach the Gospel even be considered a “church” in the first place; let alone a healthy one. And so, the question now before us is: Which Rick Warren do we believe?
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Endnotes:
1. As cited http://tinyurl.com/y3y3rxs, accessed 7/13/10.
2. http://tinyurl.com/y6ovrpd, accessed 7/13/10.
3. http://tinyurl.com/y5dfo7u, accessed 7/13/10.
4. http://www.alittleleaven.com/2007/05/rick_warren_wor.html, accessed 7/13/10.
5. Interesting to note here that in Galatians 1:6-9 the Apostle Paul advocates breaking fellowship with people such as this; and not training them how to potentially make more converts to their false gospel.
6. http://tinyurl.com/y3zfpr6, accessed 7/13/10.
(HT: AM)
Drivel as usual, Mr. Edwards. Drivel.
ReplyDeleteHow foolish of you to believe that just because you had a bad experience of Roman Catholicism - one that I do not doubt is completely true due to the fact that I know many parishes that are starved for the Gospel - that the whole Church is corrupt. Irrational Drivel!
I don't like Rick Warren much, but I do love the Church that Jesus Christ established, so please expect me to be here pointing out all your lies. I beg of you to repent and ask the Holy Spirit for humility to see that the Catholic Church was given to us so that we may know the Truth, because IT (NOT the Bible) is the pillar of truth (1Tim3:15). The family of God is amazing. Its time for you to come home and embrace the Gospel.
Bryan, the issue is not with individual parishes, it is with the apostate doctrine of the RCC. We are justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone by the grace of God alone. Nothing else. Period.
ReplyDeleteEphesians 2:
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Rick Warren is also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. The CFR actively promotes an antichristian agenda. I wonder how he would reconcile this membership with the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
ReplyDeleteAnd what, exactly, is your understanding of the RCC doctrine?
ReplyDeleteBryan, the RCC placed anathema on sola fide. Go here: http://www.carm.org/council-trent-canons-justification
ReplyDeleteJason, there is a lot that RW cannot reconcile with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He is also on Tony Blair's interfaith Faith Foundation.
ReplyDeleteJustin -
ReplyDeleteThe Bible placed anathema on Sola Fide long before Trent. See James 2:24.
Here are the relevant passages from the catechism that tackle the subject: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM
Is there anything here that you specifically find errant?
I will just add this from paragraph 1996, lest there be any doubt:
ReplyDelete"Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life"
Bryan,
ReplyDeletesaving faith always produces works, but these works are not what justifies the Christian. Reading James 2:24 in context reveals that anyone who professes faith but has no works is not saved, because faith is always evidenced by works. But those works are not what justifies as we see in the following verses:
"Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:28 — Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Titus 3:5 — He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 2:16 - knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Galatians 3:24 - Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 5:5 - For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
Regarding the link you provided, yes, there is an error immediately in the first sentence where it says the righteousness of Christ is imputed through faith AND through Baptism. Baptism is a work, thus adding it to salvation distorts the true Gospel.
Regarding your quote on your followup post, the RCC contradicts itself by saying God's grace is unmerited, yet the Catholic is required to partake in the traditions of the church in order to prove one's worthiness of said grace.
Let's take a step back from Catholicism for a moment - would you mind looking at this page: http://airo-cross.blogspot.com/p/only-gospel-that-saves.html
There is a short video (11 minutes) and a brief description of the Gospel. Could you please tell me what areas you might disagree with in either the video or the followup article?
Looking forward to your reply.
Again, Justin, your theology has a dilemma. Under your theology, human beings are not redeemed by Jesus Christ. I explained it to you earlier. You believe that God took away your freedom when you came to have 'saving faith.' God had to change you into something else in order to save you - he had to remove your free will. This, in a nutshell, is to admit that God made a mistake when he created humanity because he included freedom in his plan.
ReplyDeleteWe agree on the context of James, by the way. The difference is that you believe someone who has 'saving faith' automatically produces good works. I believe that somebody has make a conscious and often times courageous decision to produce good works. These courageous works are not the fruit of a one time decision to be open to God, but a lifetime of both big and little decisions to follow God. Read "Come Be My Light," the book of Mother Theresa's letters to her spiritual director and THAT is what Catholicism is all about. The decisions that she had to make were difficult, but she was open to the Grace of God to make good on her private vow to "Never refuse Jesus Christ anything."
You cite many verses about faith and works... OF THE LAW! The verses you site that mention deeds are all referring to the mosaic law. All of them. And I agree. But I also agree with James, who is not speaking about works of the law. He is speaking about works of mercy and charity. For James (and any Bible believing Christian) faith has to be accompanied by works of mercy and charity! Please re-read this paragraph.
Faith is also a loaded term. It does not mean some sort of intellectual assent. When Abraham had faith, he did not simply believe that God existed. He had to act in a faithful way throughout his whole life. This was challenging for Abraham, but he made a decision to be faithful. Likewise, you and I have to choose to be faithful. We don't just make a one time decision to 'have faith' after watching a cool video on Youtube (more on that). We make the decision to be faithful everyday, and in the end it is God alone who determines whether or not we were faithful.
The other verses you mention that don't mention deeds I can easily assent to as a Catholic. They perfectly fit into the Church's theology, because faith is part of what justifies us (if you need proof, please visit the links above).
Baptism is a work, alright. A work that Christ does in us. Seriously, Justin. Can a Bible believing Christian really ignore the teaching of Christ on baptism? "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3,5)." If being born of water does NOT mean baptism, what does it mean? I will add that all the writings we have on the subject of baptism from the early Church refer to being born of water to mean baptism. If it doesn't mean baptism, then why isn't there a witness from the early Church showing otherwise?
Ok, you said, "yet the Catholic is required to partake in the traditions of the church in order to prove one's worthiness of said grace." Just what 'traditions' are you speaking about? I honestly have no idea what you mean.
Take a step back? Ok. Whatever. You were the one that brought up Catholicism in the first place. Remember when you said, "How could an organization that doesn’t preach the Gospel even be considered a “church” in the first place; let alone a healthy one?"
ReplyDeleteWhich brings me to the video. As a Catholic I can assent to it, but not with some nuances like the stuff I already discussed above. For example, he seems to say that if I don't notice myself growing in holiness than what I experienced wasn't a real encounter with Christ. Thats crap. Perhaps I did have a real encounter with Christ, and maybe for a few days I actually did allow my faith to grow and I did 'act' holier, but then I got lazy, let my prayer life slip was tempted to sin, and let the fruits of that encounter with Christ die. Bottom line is, there are decisions that a Christian has to make and that God's grace is not imposed on us.
Either way, I've heard the Gospel preached much better by Catholics... namely Pope Benedict and Fr. John Corapi, SOLT.
You know quite a bit of the Gospel, Justin. But you've got to live in Christ. You do this, first through baptism. "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." Second, you must receive the Holy Eucharist, only to be found at your Catholic (or certain Orthodox) Church: "So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abids in me and I in him."
Justin, I invite you to receive this precious gift from Jesus Christ. He loves you even more than you can imagine, and he wants to live in you even more than he lives in you right now. You have gotten a taste of God's love and the joy of living in the Lord, but the false Gospel you believe is preventing him from working in your life as much as he wants.
Embrace the true Gospel of Jesus Christ!
Bryan, before I respond, would you mind answering this for me:
ReplyDeleteIf you found me on the street wounded from a gunshot, and out of charity you attended to me and saw I just had a few minutes to live, what would you share with me so I might go to heaven? 3 minutes - what will you say?
I would remind you of the love God has for you by sending his son to die for you. I would conditionally baptize you if I had reason to suspect that you were not already baptized and I had water. I would then pray with you until you died, offering you to God and entrusting you into his mercy.
ReplyDeleteYou haven't told me what I need to know or what needs to happen so I can go to heaven.
ReplyDeleteSo heaven only comes through some sort of special knowledge?
ReplyDeleteI told you all you need to know in that God loves you and sent his son to die for you, although I should have been more specific regarding the prayer... the prayer would contain certain elements that would not only bring you comfort but acknowledge God's truth. 1) It would give praise to God. 2) It would thank him for all he has given you. 3) It would acknowledge your sinfullness. 4) It would ask for God's mercy.
According to the Bible, saving faith is not mere intellectual belief. It is repenting and completely trusting in Jesus Christ for who He is and His FINISHED work on the cross. It is believing that Jesus was raised from the dead and is alive today. It is understanding your sinfulness and understanding only God can forgive your sins and He did this by making that payment through His death and resurrection. It is forsaking your sins and turning to God for salvation. It is all about trusting in Him ALONE.
ReplyDeleteYou can believe a parachute can save you, but not until you trust in the parachute and put it on can you be saved.
But according to your position, repentance and faith is not sufficient, and neither is Christ's work on the cross, because failure to be baptized in those last moments would send me to hell. The thief on the cross was lied to according to you because he was not baptized, so he must not be with Jesus in heaven now.
p.s. Where in the New Testament is anyone baptized before they were born again?
I'm on my phone so I have yet to address your previous posts.
If I don't know who Christ is, what He did, what He offers as a result of my transgressions, and that His grace and mercy is sufficient, I can't be saved.
According to the Bible, saving faith is not mere intellectual belief. It is repenting and completely trusting in Jesus Christ for who He is and His FINISHED work on the cross. It is believing that Jesus was raised from the dead and is alive today. It is understanding your sinfulness and understanding only God can forgive your sins and He did this by making that payment through His death and resurrection. It is forsaking your sins and turning to God for salvation. It is all about trusting in Him ALONE.
ReplyDeleteYou can believe a parachute can save you, but not until you trust in the parachute and put it on can you be saved.
But according to your position, repentance and faith is not sufficient, and neither is Christ's work on the cross, because failure to be baptized in those last moments would send me to hell. The thief on the cross was lied to according to you because he was not baptized, so he must not be with Jesus in heaven now.
p.s. Where in the New Testament is anyone baptized before they were born again?
I'm on my phone so I have yet to address your previous posts.
If I don't know who Christ is, what He did, what He offers as a result of my transgressions, and that His grace and mercy is sufficient, I can't be saved.
Repenting is a work. Is it not?
ReplyDeleteYes, Christ's work is finished. But the grace of this work is not finished in you, because you are not completely sanctified. The cross is very powerful. It has the power be applied to your life in ways you don't even realize yet. It is not Christ's work that is unfinished. It is YOU who are unfinished.
You said, "It is believing that Jesus was raised from the dead and is alive today. It is understanding your sinfulness and understanding only God can forgive your sins and He did this by making that payment through His death and resurrection. It is forsaking your sins and turning to God for salvation. It is all about trusting in Him ALONE."
I don't see how anything I have said could possibly be construed to be in opposition to this.
Your assertion that the Catholic teaching implies failure to be baptized would send you to hell is foolish. The Catholic Church does not teach that. It has always held that a desire to be baptized is sufficient in these cases. The thief on the cross certainly desired it. As do people who die in the process of preparation for baptism. Refusing to be baptized might send you to hell though... if you knew that this was part of the process of being justified and you refused it.
Asking where in scripture anyone is baptized before they were born again is ludicrous. That is like asking if I know of any case where somebody was born before they passed through the birth canal. Baptism is the culmination of the process of being born again. Perhaps I could ask a similar question to you: Where in the New Testament is anyone considered born again before they are baptized?
God grants us repentance, so it's not a work at all.
ReplyDeleteI am completely positionally sanctified, but will continue to be sanctified unto holiness until I receive my glorified body. This sanctification is separate from salvation.
Baptism is not a requirement for salvation. However, if one refuses to be baptized, it might be indicative of the condition of their heart since they are being disobedient. Only God knows.
Paul was born again before he was baptized:
Acts 9: 17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,
This is just one example.
You'll have to forgive me, Bryan. Time has gotten away from me today and I have a busy weekend, then will be headed to the beach. I will do my best to get back to you as soon as I can. Hope you have a good weekend. :)
I completely understand and you are forgiven. I in know way judge a man's faith based on his ability to have time consuming discussions on blog comment threads. Things are slow for me right now which makes it a bit easier for me to respond quickly and at length.
ReplyDeleteBut...
I reply that it is God that grants us conversion, and leads us to baptism, and as I'm sure you know, it is Christ who baptizes. And, again, Paul is quite clear that it is Baptism in which we enter into Christ. I point out Romans 6:3-5 which is proof - absolute PROOF - that it is through baptism that we enter into Christ: "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."
And your verse from Acts 9, as I feel is the case with many proof texts that protestants use to try and prove their point, simply does not say what you want it to say. I don't see the words 'born again' before baptism. Of course some sort of conversion happened to Paul, but scripture (John 3) teaches that the process of being born again has two parts. Spirit, which can be conversion, and Water, which is referring to baptism.
You find this all over the early Church. I don't point this out because I believe these texts are on the same level as scripture. They aren't. But, they can help us understand how the early Church viewed baptism and how we, in turn, can understand the texts that mention baptism.
So please look at these two links:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp
See, Justin? The Early Church holds the Catholic view. Your view is nowhere to be seen in the early Church. It was made up by John Calvin.