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Thursday, June 24, 2010

Godly Sorrow or "Hopeless Repentance"?

By Justin Edwards

A powerful message on repentance by Pastor Loran Livingston: Godly Sorrow.mp3

  • Until Jesus comes into your heart, you belong to the devil
  • Until He comes in, you are the temple of the devil
  • A nation or individual who tries to do better without calling on the true and living God is only setting themselves up for worse sin
  • This happens every January 1st
  • What needs to happen is a transfer of ownership, and this only happens when one professes he is a sinner in need of a Savior
  • (Luke 11) Good intentions may change the appearance of the house, but it is still empty
  • The later state of the man is worse than the first
  • Cleaning up your life will not do a thing for you
  • people are going to hell thinking they're saved
  • they think because they quit doing something, they're better off
  • And you don't go to heaven because YOU stopped doing something, you go because Jesus came and did a miraculous transformation in your life
  • You can't stop doing things, He has to start doing something inside you!
  • Today's church is offering people a cheap way to feel better about themselves without reminding them you must be born again!
  • You got to go to the cross and humble yourself in the site of the Lord
  • You have people in a repeated manner TRYING to do better, but you go a little further each time you revert
  • Each time you try do better without salvation, you revert and go a little further
  • This is what happens when YOU try to do better and for a while it seems like you're clean and in order, but the devil knows to come back in and fill you up and draw you farther and push you deeper, and if you do this enough, 2 things will happen:
  • 1. Develop a seared conscious; 2. Hopeless repentance

  • This nation has no conscious
  • when you vote, you better make sure you know where he stands on abortion, same-sex marriage, and Israel
  • You become responsible when you vote them in!
  • And we're gonna pay for it.
  • Both parties stink because both have lied, deceived, overspent, and in favor of anything that keeps them in office
  • We don't belong to it, we belong to the Kingdom of God!
  • We Christians need to get our minds off this world and on to the One that's coming! And get our hearts ready. You can't be home in this world anymore, you need to learn to say "Even so come Lord Jesus!"

Back to message:
  • Hopeless repentance
  • Judas Iscariot
  • If you constantly attempt to straighten out your life without Almighty Help, and see yourself continuing to experiment and go deeper and do more things, a sense of hopelessness will overtake you
  • "I will never be able." "It's impossible." "I've tried too many times." "I can't do this."
  • You will actually feel you can't be saved and delivered from sin because YOU tried to do it and you can't.
  • You will lose hope in God when you should have lost hope in you!
  • But in God there's hope! There's the power to live right. God can change anybody. Yes Jesus! the Son of God can take what's wrong and make it right!
  • Puffed up Christians
  • Sorrow leading to repentance
  • Sorrow in godly manner
  • Sorrow - one is godly sorrow, one is a worldly sorrow
  • Worldly sorrow - being upset with yourself because of a string of messes with yourself
  • Never settled down, doing this or that, never getting caught, or getting caught - "I'm sorry I've lived this way"
  • Worldly sorrow will kill you
  • You can be sorry for your mistakes, even for your sins and still go to hell
  • Because sorrow is not about how you have failed people or yourself, sorrow must first go back to Him...I failed Him! And until it's about Jesus, you're still lost.
  • Men don't straighten up, but for a little while
  • sinners can't straighten up until their sorrow is projected in the right direction, they WILL never straighten up and they WILL never see Jesus as Savior.
  • worldly sorrow leads to death, but godly sorrow leads to repentance not to be regretted.
  • It's not "look what I've done to people, look what I've done to my family, look what I've done to myself, look how may lives I've destroyed"
  • When a person comes to Jesus, what they realize is and what they say is, "Look what I did to God! Look how I've offended heaven. Look what I've done."
  • Here's how you know you've repented:
  • not because you feel bad about it
  • Here's a definition:
  • that you've sorrowed in a godly manner;
  • what diligence it produces - when you truly repent, you become diligent - read your Bible, prayer, get involved at church, surround yourself with believers, get off your knees and get into action, there will be an immediate and noticeable change
  • living a way people will know I've repented
  • I want to be clean before Him and before them
  • I've had it - discipline enters your life
  • fear - I'm capable of doing that again; I have the same nature inside me, but I must stay on my knees, and God, I don't want to fall!
  • Vehement desire -- zeal!
  • You can't be a relaxed warrior. Nobody is fighting when they're laid back
  • I don't care what my friends do, what my family does--I'm going to heaven!
  • Not because "we" are going, but because I got my mind made up!
  • Vindication - going to show God how much I appreciate what Jesus did on the cross
  • Gonna pick up my cross, carry it on my shoulders, and carry it daily
  • In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter -- with your attitude and your actions you have proved you have repented, it is not a worldly sorrow, it is a godly sorrow.
  • And when you live like this you're on your way to heaven!
  • Psalm 51
  • If David had been Joseph in a time of testing and temptation, he would not have had to write Psalm 51
  • Joseph - "How can I sin, this great evil, against God?"
  • A man that loves God, I can't handle this on my own
  • I'd rather be in jail with a clear conscious, than on the throne with a guilty one
  • This is not about me, this is about God!
  • That realization that he owed God his life, kept him from doing a destructive sin
  • David paid for it the rest of his life
  • But Joseph ran
  • I've been delivered, I don't belong to myself, I belong to the Lord!
  • I have to reconcile every day
  • Devil will tempt you every day
  • Jesus has come into this house!
  • With God's help, I'm going to live for Christ!
  • You will never forget your sins
  • You gotta fight, you gotta flee every day of your life
  • Flee upward with eyes on Jesus!
  • Fight, flee, and forgive

  • Do you want Jesus to give you the calm assurance that He has forgiven you, that He has forgotten?
  • He can save anybody from anything anytime if you'll ask Him
  • Remember, no matter how bad it was, this is what Jesus can do
  • You can't make it on your own, you can't stop on your own, it has to be God's Holy Spirit
  • You have to humble yourself, and mean business about living right.


  1. I had a problem loading the mp3 as it was taking a long time. I wanted to find out the Pastor's position on American politicians stance on Israel.

    Could you please clarify what he means by this sentiment?

    There are conservative/Orthodox parties like the Likud and Shas, centrist parties like Kadima, and leftist parties like Ta'al. Does he advocate for any of these specific parties or parties' sympathies? As I read Ha'aretz, I see that there are many factions in Israel who do not support the current majority.

    As far as I know, there is no Christian political coalition in Israel. However there are both Palestinian and Jewish Christians who face vehement persecution from Judaics and Muslims in Israel.

    Are we to have politicians that advocate for the Christian minority? Or are we to support American politicians who side with the Orthodox-minded? Or perhaps the leftist political groups there?

  2. Hi Jason, thank you for the comment. Did you try both options at the link? There is a mp3 player embedded on the page where you can click play, or you can click on the mp3 download link that will take you to Quicktime.

    I am not exactly familiar with the intricacies of Israeli politics. Loran understands the Israeli government is secular and of this world. I believe his position is that the Israeli nation still has a future with Almighty God. Any move by the United States to turn our backs on the nation of Israel, or seek to divide Jerusalem, or establish a Palestinian state would be met by the judgment of God. All nations will eventually turn their backs on Israel, and woe unto them when they do.

    The church must be focused on the lost, whether they are Jew or Palestinian, Muslim or Greek. We must also vote in a manner that puts politicians in office who defend the sovereignty of Israel, who will fight for the sanctity of marriage and life, and who will fight for our freedoms that directly and indirectly affect whether we may freely share the Gospel. I think that was his major point in the message if I remember correctly.

    Does that help?

  3. Ok, got it to play and it's rolling as I type. Probably a user error on my part. Thank you for the tip!

    Are we not already under the judgement of God? He is showing us right now that we need to stop 'playing God' and neglecting our duty as stewards of his Creation with this Gulf oil spill.

    As the Pastor stated, we are a nation without conscience and I completely agree with this. Our government is secular. Israel's government is secular. Does God bless one secular nation's support of another secular nation?

    What is 'secular' if not satanic? Neither government acts with the spirit of Jesus and the Gospel. You could say both are possessed of unclean spirits.

    As the secular gov't of the US supports secular Israel to the tune of $7B/year along with weapons of war, it impedes the testimony of Israeli Christians (Arab and Jewish) attempting to spread the Gospel in that land to Muslims, Judaics and those of other faiths - especially when the projected image of the US and its politicians is that of a Christian nation. For what Christian would support bombing of any sort? It's contrary to the direct teachings of Jesus Christ as stated in Matthew 5:43-48.

    These so-called Christian politicians damage the spreading of the Gospel and testimony of Jesus Christ by annointing themselves with the mantle of righteousness while simultaneously supporting the deaths of innocent men, women and children in the name of revenge, retaliation, preemptive strikes and assassinations.

    So I ask myself when someone says they support Israel, are they supporting/blessing Israel in prayer (as God is spirit and the Christian's fight is spiritual warfare), or are they supporting the satanic actions of a satanic government? We are currently reaping the rewards of persistently doing the latter.

  4. You're quite welcome, Jason. :)

    You said:

    "Are we not already under the judgement of God? He is showing us right now that we need to stop 'playing God' and neglecting our duty as stewards of his Creation with this Gulf oil spill."

    I do think God will judge the nations today, but no one has the knowledge of when these judgments happen. For instance, the oil spill *could* be a judgment for turning our backs on Israel, but no one truly knows. The earthquake in Haiti *could* have been a judgment from God for their voodoo, etc, but no one truly knows.

    What we do know is the earth is fallen, and all creation groans for Christ to return. Jesus said in the last days there would be wars, pestilences, and earthquakes. The closer we get to the tribulation period, the more frequent these will come to past. But we are not in the tribulation yet.

    You also said:

    "So I ask myself when someone says they support Israel, are they supporting/blessing Israel in prayer (as God is spirit and the Christian's fight is spiritual warfare), or are they supporting the satanic actions of a satanic government? We are currently reaping the rewards of persistently doing the latter."

    I believe the United States was birthed for 2 reasons: to spread the Gospel to the world and to defend the nation of Israel. There has been no other country in the history of mankind that has done more work for the Kingdom than the United States. Think back to the Great Awakening when the fire first began to spread, even today with our global missions (where the Gospel is not compromised). That said, I think this time is coming to an end. Our nation is morally bankrupt. Our churches are filled with pew warmers, apostates, and heretics. We are the lukewarm Laodicean church. The globally professed church is undergoing the falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2. While we were indeed once a Christian nation, I don't think this can be said anymore. As such, this nation's days are numbered.

    Regarding Israel, she is prophecy fulfilled. The establishment of the nation state in 1948 began God's prophetic time clock. This was the fulfillment that Israel would regather albeit still in unbelief, and they continue to regather in unbelief today. This must happen before the end can come. Israel will also regather as a nation in faith, and this will happen after God supernaturally intervenes in the Ezekiel 38-39 Gog Magog war. All this to say, the United States has served its purpose to protect Israel as she regathers as a nation. Wars happen today, just like they happened in the Bible. God's will be done in these matters.

    When I say I support the nation of Israel, that does not mean I support everything the Israeli government does. My heart is for the Jewish people as they are indeed still God's chosen and they need Jesus. I also have a heart for the Arab Muslims and Christians - the former need Jesus, and the latter are our brothers and sisters in Christ. While I do not support every action of the government, I know that God's plan is sovereign and at the end of the day His hand is on His people and on this nation. He will be glorified and He will be made known. Our part, now, as the Church, is to remain in prayer for the lost souls, for our brothers and sisters undergoing persecution, and for the peace of Jerusalem.

    Jesus is coming soon - any moment now - and all these things will indeed come to pass.



  5. Surely, Jesus comes quickly.

    However, I fear that this country's cup of iniquity already overflows. I pray we have the hearts of the Ninevites, who repented when warned of God's holy judgement by Jonah. And I pray that this country is able to remove the veil from its collective heart and turn to God at this troubling hour.

    Neither bullet, missile, bomb, or multiple billions of dollars carry the power that prayer to Yahweh does. If we would just reach to touch the hem of our Savior's garment, we could be made whole again.

    But, we have to first love the Truth.

  6. thanks for your comment Justin.
    you said,
    "Regarding Israel, she is prophecy fulfilled. The establishment of the nation state in 1948 began God's prophetic time clock. This was the fulfillment that Israel would regather albeit still in unbelief, and they continue to regather in unbelief today."

    -Where is this prophesied? and two Where in the New Testament does it say we should have such devotion to the Nation of Israel? Is not the same Church that is in the Old Testament the same Church that we a part of today? Is Christ not the firstborn among us all? have we not received what so many before Christ did not receive?

    Is the Nation of Israel separate from the Body of Christ? or are we the same?
    Abraham was a Jew because he was one inwardly correct? He looked forward to what we have received? and We look back at what we have received? We are called Born Again because we have received this Promise correct?

    Just not connecting the Dots with the thinking behind what I hear people say about Supporting Israel. and what I "read" about Supporting our brothers in Christ. " In my eyes if you are Supporting Israel in this manner... you have no Choice but to give Supporting our brothers in Christ the backseat treatment? (concerning the MIddle East)
    and TWO... how does it make the Palestinian Believer feel when and you say these things?

    What I read in the bible says the Prophecy given to Israel was fulfilled long before 1948. ???? Is not the Covenant given to Moses fulfilled in Christ and now fully Replaced in the Covenant Christ has given us? or is there still Two covenants? have we not been grafted in to this same Covenant by Christ himself? are we not ONE? has Christ come for nothing? Does God really give special treatment? or is HE JUST?

    you also said,
    " Our passion for politics should be directly related to the Gospel and the freedoms that enable us to freely share it, and the laws that protect the sanctity of marriage and life, and policies that protect Israel from the evils mounting against her and from the division of Jerusalem."

    -Where in the bible are we commissioned to to do this? Are we not given one Great Commission? to love God Love your Neighbor? love the Brethren? Im not saying you shouldn't have a political opinion. Isn't Freedom in Christ the Freedom to do what he has called us to do? share the Gospel and take Social Action... with Love. TRUE Freedom is this = The POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT which allows us to do, to be, to GO. In my Opinion, Politics shouldn't be intermingled with The Good News of Christ and what he has Accomplished on the Cross. Judas got mixed up in this same thinking... and you can read how that turned out? Took silver over a SAVIOR cause in his Political opinion he thought he could make things right for his GOD. one word "PRIDE". the same pride drove him to hang himself.

  7. I guess I'll tag along with our fb discussion here :)

    Hey Brian, I think Romans 11 will clear a lot of things up for you. God still has unfulfilled promises to the Jewish people. I might also encourage you to pick up a copy of Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's "The Footsteps of the Messiah" where you will find all the Scriptural support of the different dispensations and what God's plan is for the Church and ... See Morefor Israel. Replacing Israel with the Church is not biblical. This is known as Replacement Theology. God's plan is clear in Romans 11, and He still has a future with Israel. In fact, the Great Tribulation serves a primary purpose to reconcile Israel with Jesus the Messiah. For starters, here's some biblical evidence for this regathering: Ezekiel 20:33-38; 22:17-22; 36:22-24; 37:1-14; Isaiah 11:11-12; Zephaniah 2:1-2 and Ezekiel 38-39.

    Sorry if I caused confusion with saying "the nation of Israel." Generally, this is in reference to the spiritual state of Israel - the Jewish people. Israel the sovereign state is merely the location where the people are regathering. The physical place of Israel has great significant importance in the future, to include the Gog/Magog invasion, the Antichrist government, the desolation of the 3rd temple, Armageddon, and of course the return of Christ to the Mount of Olives (among many other things). The Jews are the remnant found in Revelation 13 who flee to Petra (Bosrah), and the center of Christ's Millennial Kingdom. This is quite the superficial explanation of what God has planned for the Jewish people, but you can learn more in Fructh's book.

    I would disagree with you that we are chartered with taking social action. Granted, social action may take place through the spreading of the Gospel, but social action is not a primary charter. This merely happens out of obedience of the 1st and 2nd greatest commandments - love. We have to be careful about yokes we put around one another's necks. We are citizens of heaven indeed, but we are also citizens of the land. No where in Scripture are we called to be political pacifists, and it is our responsibility, imho, to responsibility participate in the political process to ensure we can continue to freely spread the Gospel and sustain biblical principles in government. We are clearly losing the latter battle, which is a just a sign of the times imo. You may find this short article beneficial:

  8. yo I think... we might be on the same page in some areas here.

    About REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY... I never meant to say that the church has replaced Israel in the bible on the contrary like Romans 11:16-21 says We are grafted into the ROOT. So that said... We haven't replaced Israel we are Israel. Went back a few chapters and read also check this Romans 9:6-8. Says... "they are not all Israel who are of Israel."

    I think there is hope fore Israel and that according to the Flesh the Jewish people have been cut off, but according to the Spirit they can be grafted back in.

    I'm gonna study some more on the biblical evidence for the regathering: Ezekiel 20:33-38; 22:17-22; 36:22-24; 37:1-14; Isaiah 11:11-12; Zephaniah 2:1-2 and Ezekiel 38-39

    I think the major difference is that I don't believe in Zionism.
    FYI... Zionism , before it became a Christian Movement called Christian Zionism. It was a political movement called World Zionist Organization started in 1897 with Switzerland. Later was joined with England. in 1918.

    and about the Politics....
    Let your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven... I guess can be seen as a Political Pacifist. but I don't think that! I think that What I said earlier may have been wrong and come across wrong. Cause I do think that We should take a stand for Moral Excellence. In doing this I think we take a stand for God's Kingdom. But I think it should be done in love, but When our politics keep us from the knowledge of the TRUTH. and being Obedient then politics become a problem.

    I think we are to render to Caesar what is Caesar's but give God what is God's.
    I think we are to be in the World.. but Not of it! you know?

    and what did you mean by We have to be careful about yokes we put around one another's necks? i might be having a blonde moment but just checking?

    its OK to agree to disagree?

  9. Dear brother, if you say we are now Israel, you have effectively stated that we have replaced Israel. The Church and Israel are distinctively separate. God has made promises to Israel that do not transfer to the Church. Going through Romans 9 and 11, verse by verse, should make this clear. This is a bit long, but I hope you take the time to go through it with me. :)

    Romans 9:4 "who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;" - This is not the Church.

    Romans 9:6 "6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel," - This is not a reference to the Church. Not all physical descendants of Abraham are true heirs of the promise.

    Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." These verses show God's sovereign election. Salvation is a result of His grace and mercy, not by human effort. Verses 19-21 hammer this point home.

    Verses 30-32 show that Israel's works of righteousness could not save them, it was only the righteousness from faith granted by God that saves. They did not put their faith in Jesus, the stumbling stone, therefore they fell.

    Romans 11 makes the distinctions between Israel and the Church more clear.

    Romans 11:5 "Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Although Israel was collectively hardened (partially), there remained a remnant saved by grace through faith. These are Jews. Today, there remains a remnant of believing Jews - we call them Messianic.

    Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work." This is an emphasis that we, whether Jew or Gentile, are saved by grace alone.

    Romans 11:7 "What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded." This reiterates God's sovereign election of those He has chosen (the remnant Jews). The remaining Jews who sought God's righteousness through their works failed to obtain it.

    Romans 11:11 "I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles." This reveals that though Israel has been hardened, it is only partially and they will eventually be brought back. Until then, salvation by grace is offered to the Gentiles so to provoke Israel back to God.

    Romans 11:12 "Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!" As great as the riches of the Gentiles might be, the riches of Israel when they come back to God will be even greater because they are the original receivers of the promise. Gentiles are partakers.

    Romans 11:17-24 is a strong warning to the Gentiles to not be proud or arrogant of the salvation they have received because of Israel's rejection of Christ.

    Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree," A reminder that Gentiles are mere partakers of God's grace, not sole heirs of the promise.

    Romans 11:18 "do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you." Gentiles must not boast against the natural branches (Israel), for we must remember it is the Root that supports us, not the other way around.

  10. Romans 11:19-21 "19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either." A reminder to not take for granted the gift of faith given to the Gentiles. If God did not spare Israel in their unbelief, neither will He spare Gentiles. The Church itself will not be spared regarding those who have apostatized from the faith.

    Romans 11:22 "Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." God was severe towards Israel, and good towards the Gentiles. This goodness only remains if we abide in Him. Only those who are truly saved will abide (persevere). There are many Gentiles in the Church who fall away because they were never truly saved.

    Romans 11:23 "And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." Because Israel's hardening was only partial, there is coming a day when they will be grafted back in when they return to God in faith.

    Romans 11:24 "For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" The Gentiles (the Church) are a wild branch grafted into the olive tree. How much greater will it be for Israel, the natural branch, to be grafted back in to their own tree as the original receivers of the promise? Israel will repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah.

    Romans 11:25-26 "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved," And here we have the clearest evidence that the Church IS NOT Israel. The partial blindness of Israel will be lifted when the last Gentile is saved. The fullness of the Gentiles is in reference to the Rapture of the Church. Once the Church is gone, the dispensation of grace will have ended, and God's focus will return to Israel so that ALL of Israel will be saved. All of Israel is saved at the end of the Tribulation. This has nothing to do with the Church, and therefore the Church is distinctly separate from Israel. We are not Israel.

    Romans 11:28 "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers." Israel is presently an enemy of the Gospel, but this does not negate that they are God's covenant people. They are the original receivers of the promise, and this promise has not been transferred to the Church, but rather the Church has been grafted in to partake in the promise.

    Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." This makes it clear that God's sovereign election is irreversible, and His eternal covenant with Israel remains.

    Romans 11:30-31 "For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy." God's grace and mercy will once again be extended to Israel.

    Romans 11:32 "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." God allowed man to pursue sin, so that He may be glorified by demonstrating His grace and mercy to disobedient sinners.

    I'll make a second post to address the rest of your post....

  11. What is your definition of Zionism? Do you deny that the Israeli state established in 1948 has any prophetic significance? Here is a great article to further explain the distinction between Israel and the Church:;

    Thanks for explaining your position on politics. The reason I made the comment about yokes is that it seemed you were saying Christians should not participate in the political process or have a political opinion and therefore you were admonishing, in a sense, any Christian who does. I would agree with you that the Gospel must remain our top priority, and anything, whether politics or football, that gets in the way of the Gospel is indeed a problem. I apologize if I misunderstood your position.

    Well, I guess that will be a lot to read this morning. I'm interested in hearing more on your thoughts about God's plan for Israel in the future, and whether we come to agreement with the Scriptures I brought forward in Romans 9 and 11. In any case, let us continue to rightly divide the Word in truth and in love so that we can mutually edify one another and more importantly, bring glory to God in these matters.

    Love ya brother :)


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